The Good Mentor

I've been asked if I have more on my dad's time with Frank Lloyd Wright.

I'll get a bit more together later but here is something you can look at in the meantime:

And yes, that old guy in the flat hat is indeed Frank Lloyd Wright. And the young fellow in the red sweater bears an uncanny resemblance to the blog author.

That young man went on to build a custom home for his first client. That home still stands today and the original owners still live in it. The owners say the house has never, ever needed any maintenance or repairs even to this day, enduring harsh northern weather with grace. The house is exquisite, built with hand-selected natural materials and embracing a panoramic view of a beautiful lake. The architect said it was the hardest damn thing he ever did.

He swore off building houses forever after that and focused only on commercial buildings and shopping centers. One development was "The Crossroads" in Sacramento, CA - a breathtakingly beautiful shopping center that thrived until some idiot flying a jet that he was not licensed to be in crashed into it. He also built a lovely shopping complex in downtown Santa Cruz called "The Galleria" (he just designed them, he didn't name them). This complex was so well engineered, that while every other nearby building suffered damage in the 1989 Loma Prieta Earthquake, his was unscathed.

Through it all, he helped many young people learn the finer points of his craft. Even though, like his teacher, he was a brilliant engineer, my dad always said he was in the business of design, not construction.

Joy and I were the last people my dad saw before he passed. Joy told me my dad won't leave the Earth until he sees me one last time. I'm glad he waited.

Bad Mentor, Good Mentor

Bill Duby was fond of saying that the founder of the Berkeley Psychic Institute was his closest spiritual mentor and that the time Bill spent at BPI was full of close contact with BPI’s founder. Bill went on to say that he was “taken under Lewis’ wing” and treated somewhat like the heir to the BPI legacy.

We all took this for granted for a long time. Like up until now when I decided to get to the bottom of the whole thing.

Bill’s history at BPI is somewhat of a mystery. A few who had attended BPI simultaneously with Bill remember him being there but can’t recall that BPI’s founder had any particular affection for Bill other than for the money Bill spent there.

I also discovered that shortly after enrolling in the BPI Clairvoyant Training Program (a two-year course of training) at BPI headquarters in Berkeley, CA, Bill was expelled by none other than Michael Tamura presumably for being a pain in the ass. Apparently after some kind of appeal to someone (it is believed that the founder was not involved in the appeal), Bill was reinstated but was shoveled off to a satellite location about a half hour away in Walnut Creek, CA. It seems that the founder of BPI was not fond enough of Bill to have him nearby.

No one recalled seeing Bill at the Berkeley headquarters, much less recall seeing him at the foot of Lewis Bostwick, the founder of BPI. Legend has it that Lewis Bostwick was far more interested in complaining about imaginary plots against him and pinching the asses of his female students than he was with mentoring a banished pain in the ass.

In fact, if the official SRF timeline of Bill’s life is to be believed, Bill spent at least one year attending BPI and Marc Reymont’s New Age Awareness Foundation simultaneously. The notion that one could have cultivated a close relationship with Lewis Bostwick (after being expelled, reinstated then relocated a half hour away from Berkeley) while pursuing studies with Marc Reymont in San Francisco (nearly an hour away from Berkeley, factoring in Bay Area traffic) sounds pretty much impossible.

Bill was graduated from BPI in the prescribed two year term and awarded the title of “Reverend” by the Church of Devine Man. As I hear it, Bill was graduated not one moment later than the exact time necessary to complete the Clairvoyant Training Program. Bill was fond of saying that Lewis Bostwick blessed him with the words: “now go out and learn”.

Unfortunately, we were the ones who learned something: we learned how a con man operates. We learned how far two women will go to protect a man and conceal theft and deceit. We learned how much we could be debased and to what depths we would descend to gain favor and status.

And as for Bill: he learned how to control minds, bodies, hearts and souls. He learned how to make money using other people’s money. I mean, he made money by TAKING other people’s money. Bill learned how to use women to get away with whatever kind of crazy notions he may desire. Like the rape of teenage girls.

Many members of SRF claim knowledge of Bill Duby molesting the daughter of his own partner as well as another young member of the cult. As far as the partner’s daughter is concerned, that was said to be covered up with a secret (and illegal) agreement involving Bill, his partner (who now serves as SRF’s president) and the girl’s father. As for the other, it’s spoken of quietly out of respect for the person involved.

That is some kind of mentoring. Looks like Bill took pinching of asses to a whole new level.

I have a different story for you. It is also a mentoring story. One that even my wife didn’t believe until she found confirmation.

My dad was a young man in the early 50’s. He and his family were wiped out after WWII as were many of Japanese ancestry. Their farm, their livelihood was just plain gone after they returned from their internment. A caretaker had sold it out from under them and kept the money, daring them to come get it. Of course, no jury or court at the time would uphold the rights of a Japanese American citizen who's only crime was the birthplace of their ancestors.

My dad was able to scrape enough together to attend the California Polytechnic Institute in San Luis Obispo just before WWII started, and stayed until he got hauled out of college because of the internment. He then set his sights on architecture as a career. To obtain the education necessary, though, he had to attend a good college and study from a real architect. So, he hitchhiked across country landing on the East Coast.

Every college he applied to rejected him for one reason and one reason only. He was denied because of his ancestry . Commonly, he was told that he lost the war and he better get his yellow ass out of town before they set the dogs loose to straighten out those slanted eyes.

Discouraged, he set back for California. On the way back, he stopped at the home of a man he admired. Just to see the home this great man built. Just for a moment before he went back home to a life of picking fruit and plowing fields.

To his shock, the man came out to say hello. And after hearing my dad’s story, the man hung his head as was moved to say, “I am truly sorry for what you and your family experienced. “ Then raising his head , looking my dad in the eye, this famous and accomplished man said “So, you want to be an architect? I'd love to teach you. In fact, you can start today. I’ll tell Iovana to get you on a scholarship and we will get your dorm room set up for you. Come on, we have lots to do.”

Of course my dad being who he is, stammered out that he and his family will be happy to pay for his education and that, you know, at least make me do something for this.

To which, Frank Lloyd Wright said to my dad, his blue eyes twinkling and his wry smile on his lips, “Well if you feel guilty, you can be my driver.” Then waiving his hand said, “Come on! Come on! ”

And that started a six year odyssey with my dad and Mr. Wright.

And that odyssey began a lifetime of creation, prosperity and the honor of having been inspired by a true genius. His projects provided employment for thousands of workers, comfort and enjoyment for those who resided and worked in them.

And I never heard of him pinching anyone ass.

Well, my mom’s sometimes. But let’s not go there.

And just last year, the California State Polytechnic University at San Luis Obispo conferred a rare honor upon my dad:  he was conferred a posthumous honorary degree for his sacrifices during WWII and his internment.  For those out there who believe that's an empty gesture or a useless item: just try to get one of those on your own.

And then try to enter Taliesin for six years.  Oh, and try to get that training with Frank Lloyd Wright.  I'm sure your psychic powers can resurrect Mr. Wright and you'll receive all his knowledge through the ether.  Many healings and psychic readings as well as hours of trance will help you I'm sure.

Run like hell, the wolves are coming.

I often wonder what I was doing in that crazy place for so long.

I mean, this place lost its appeal to me after a while. Things got boring, mundane. The focus on the whole thing was just plain money. That's all thanks to the nuts who were in charge. At least, when Bill Duby was alive, you'd get a laugh now and then. With the current motley crew at the helm, you wind up as morose and bitter as they are every week. It's just that there was that great numbing session called "healing clinic" once a week to give you that shot of spiritual morphine. And if that wasn't enough, the Monday Night Trance sessions gave you a nice big slam of heroin in your veins.

I thought that I'd had enough. I did stick around long enough to establish a great relationship with a wonderful woman. That woman had nothing to do with the leadership. In fact, she was frequently shunned, demeaned by leaders and membership.

One member, we knew, is a man for whom we had some respect. He carried an advanced degree from a major university, was obviously well educated and was successful. My wife was most impressed with his knowledge and educational achievements. Now when my wife began attending a community college to begin her own higher education, this respected man said derisively "She will find that a college education won't do her any good." He went on to repeat the SRF party line about over-education and how it fills your head with the thoughts of college professors; thoughts that cloud your mind with the unenlightened and demonic information of college.

Well, that just made his stock go down faster than the Dow. He went from admired to disdained in a second.

Still, we soldiered on while my wife continued to attend college. It was a struggle. Not only did she have to attend college, she had to work as often as possible, attend her SRF classes, pay for SRF classes and activities and try to eat at the same time. Not a lot of fun.

When she waivered from her commitment to SRF, they reined her back in saying that SRF is the best place for her and the best thing in her life. We bought it - for a while. And for that while, we felt trapped. Trapped in a crap apartment in a gang-filled, drug-infested slum. Trapped in an organization that would stoop to any depths to exert control over its members. Trapped by a leadership that was dysfunctional and corrupt. We needed a way out. A way to seek our freedom. A way to find the essence of life.

Then when things started looking up for us by way of a modest, but nice inheritance, SRF made a characteristic, clumsy and ultimately fatal blunder: they tried to get their hands on our new home. That's right. We were told to "sell that goddamn house" and get back up to Berkeley, erasing all of our needed gains and eliminating our much needed freedom. In order to take the bad energy off the house, we would be required to tithe 10% of the house's value in accordance with spiritual law and SRF doctrine. And that 10% would be due every year. Every year until we have exhausted our ability to borrow against the house. Then we would be required to sell it to pay our debts and move back into the SRF slum apartment.

At that point, we decided that we had to get out. As soon as the house was closed and all the issues in the contentious probate I had to endure was over, I decided it was truely over for SRF. My wife and I fought bitterly over SRF. When is was over with SRF, we were fine. It's good to be away from all that. My wife has said over and over that the fights were all over SRF and all over the thing they wanted from us.

As far as the leaders are concerned, they can have go enjoy their retirement villa in Marin County for as long as they can. That is, if they can.

Maybe they are depressed and defeated. Fine. Maybe they just had enough. That's fine too. It seems to me that they are looking for one last chance to rape, pillage and plunder. Don't be surprised if they move into that retirement villa with a very large piggy bank under their arm. And that piggy bank has your name, your neighbor's name, all your ex-member's names and the names of anyone who has ever been at SRF written on it.

Bill Duby himself said you can't keep running - the world is round. If these two are running from the problems they created, how much running do you think they can do? And what happens when you discover those problems? Will you be the one to fix it?

Or will you be the ones to suffer from them?

Above the Law

Today, I thought quickly about channeling Keith Olberman, that craze on MSNBC. I could have a post full of "HOW DARE YOU" and close-ups with my scowling, pouting face outraged about, well, you know what I could be outraged about. But that sounds exhausting.

I could just say, "caution - you are entering a no-spin zone" and start channeling Bill O'Riley. All I'd have to do is call people "pinhead". It's a lot easier than channeling Olberman.

But instead, I thought of those who believe they are above the law.

Unlike most of the world, religions in America enjoy an enormous amount of freedom. The First Amendment of the Constitution absolutely bars federal, state or local government from regulating or restricting the practice of any religion.

The first amendment is so broad, that unconventional churches are allowed to become established and thrive in America.

Religions can also enjoy tax-exempt status from monies donated to the church and stipends payed out to clergy. Not many ministers get rich on their churches. Some in the larger churches are well paid, deservedly so but that pay is a small percentage of church revenues. Those in smaller churches who own properties, luxury cars and treat themselves to new designer wardrobes every year are probably less deserving.

When it comes to the Spiritual Rights Foundation, you have to wonder: with all these crazy antics, the intermingling of private enterprise with church leadership, the use of church funds to provide for the satisfaction of the leader's desire for cars, real estate, new clothes and retirement villas, what the hell are they thinking?

One thing I noticed about SRF and other groups like it is that they tend to operate above the law. Look at the FLDS: they marry off girls as young as 11 years old but claim religious freedom to justify their actions. If those dirty old men at the FLDS were not playing hide the salami with 11 year old girls, we might have looked the other way with their spiritual marriages. But, we have this thing about our constitutional laws overriding spiritual laws, if those spiritual laws involve the actual or threatened loss of a person's life, liberty, personal safety or property.

But if you think you are not bound by the laws of the land, why not rape any 11 year old who comes near you? Why not have 4, 5, maybe 10 wives (all on welfare, because a man can make only so much, you know). And why not set up companies for yourself using church money for your capital, and why not buy properties with the church money?

For as long as I remember, Bill Duby was suspicious and even disdainful of our government and our way of life - even as he drew Social Security Disability checks every month and benefited from Medicare coverage while his followers lived hand-to-mouth and often had to rely on the public health system for medical attention.

Some of the advice I heard was somewhat sensible: you don't have to pay taxes, so pay as little as possible. Some absurd: set up a system of affiliated churches to create tax-free income among the members or "drop out" of the tax system by deleting your social security records. Of course, removing yourself from social security will have some pretty dire consequences if you retire or become disabled - you won't be able to. It makes no sense to wipe out that safety net.

But what's worse is the sense that separation of church and state entitles you to behave in ways not tolerated in the world of law and justice.

During the long and protracted disputes between a group of courageous men and women and the leadership of the Spiritual Rights Foundation, there were several behaviors brought to the light of law enforcement - things that few, if any of the membership was aware of.

One day, the Alameda District Attorney's office conducted a raid of the SRF headquarters with a complaint regarding truant children. Apparently, while we were being told that the children were "home-schooled", the children were actually not-schooled. That particular revelation drew the ire of the DA's office and caused a tremendous amount of angst within SRF.

Other things came up. Some small, such as buildings constructed without permits, a cafe operated without a license were some of the items. But dropping out from society, becoming invisible to the government, was always spoken about at SRF.

One particularly crazy scheme was that ordained ministers of SRF should each found their own SRF-affiliated church so "they can pass money back and forth and not pay taxes".

Most likely, the affiliated churches would be passing more money forth than they got back.

But the practice of "buying" cars for certain church members was also suspicious from a legal point of view. The church (in the form of the leader) would purchase a car, obtaining financing themselves and generally maintaining title to the vehicle. That vehicle would then be "given" to a member. However, the member was required to make the payments on the vehicle, pay for insurance, maintenance, fuel and anything else related that vehicle - even if that vehicle was used to conduct church business.

Most of the recipients of these gifts were in no position to afford such generosity. But that didn't stop SRF. Those cars were intended to project the image of prosperity. And these cars were not on the economy end of the line. Many were luxury cars, SUV's, sports cars. Cars that were expensive. One would need to drive a shiny new car he or she can't afford in order to become prosperous, was the thinking. I've never met anyone who became prosperous that way, have you?

That kind of practice would probably be considered vehicle leasing or re-selling and would require licensing from the DMV. It may also be considered a profit-making activity which would then allow the IRS to require the filing of detailed tax returns.

After those issues were conveyed to SRF by an attorney, the practice stopped.

Now, forcing people to buy a car is not the smartest thing to do. I really don't think that this gesture was motivated by generosity. It's control, plain and simple.

My wife and I bought new cars. We were careful to plan, save and research. Because of that effort, we both got the cars that not only fit our lives, they fit our budget and have made us very happy and satisfied. And prosperous. Those vehicles are in the higher end (they are Volvos). We afforded them easily by adhering to a savings plan, making a down payment large enough we can afford the payments on even a fourth of our income.

Of course that is not the SRF way as it's reasonable, methodical, requires advance thought and is absolutely, scrupulously legal.

But we are re-discovering those reasonable and legal ways to get through life. We don't mind paying our Social Security taxes. Income taxes are fine as long as we get a refund and like most Americans we know that the majority of our taxes go to government services like roads, hospitals and the like. It's OK with us to buy a car the usual way. It's OK with us to maintain a healthy distance between ourselves and our church.

But it's not OK with us to participate in unlawful acts - even if our church says it's OK. Or even if our church says to evade the government is to promote moral, biblical conduct.

Bill Duby was fond of saying that God is not a respecter of persons. He used that statement to justify being a scofflaw, a bully, a thief and as alleged by several persons, a child molester.

Even if the state and church remain separated, when you live in the world of man, you have to respect the laws of man. Even Bill had to admit that.

Do you know who this could be?

Psychdoctorate posted a comment earlier. He says the use of the meditation techniques taught at SRF cause a condition called "hypomania". I'm not much of psychologist so I had to look that up.

Here is what I found describing hypomania.

Hypomania Episodes
According to the DSM-IV-TR, a hypomanic episode includes, over the course of at least 4 days, elevated mood plus three of the following symptoms OR irritable mood plus four of the following symptoms:

• pressured speech; rapid talking
• inflated self-esteem or grandiosity
• decreased need for sleep;
• flight of ideas or the subjective experience that thoughts are racing;
• easy distractibility and attention-deficit (superficially similar to attention deficit hyperactivity disorder);
• increase in psychomotor agitation
• steep involvement in pleasurable activities that may have a high potential for negative psycho-social or physical consequences (e.g., the person engages in unrestrained buying sprees, sexual indiscretions, or foolish business investments).

In the hypomanic state, people may feel like they can't slow their mind down, and that all these speeding thoughts are amazingly perfectly crafted. Some examples are speaking or writing in rhyme or alliteration without planning it first; quick responses to people talking; or the ability to improvise easily on the spot.


While reading this description, I had a sixth sense of sorts. That sense was telling me that I saw all that before.

Now, I am sure I've seen that somewhere before. I don't exactly recall with whom or at what time. But it seems like someone, somewhere did most or all of the stuff described at some time.

I'll send donuts to the first person to tell me.

Trading Places II

PsychDoctorate originally left the below as a comment to the Trading Places post. He's got a lot of experience with Michael Tamura, it seems.

I thought that, as it is related to how Bill felt about me vs. Michael Tamura, PsychDoctorate's comment deserved its own entry.

Still, even if Michael Tamura's behavior at BPI was as described by Bill and PsychDoctorate, how is it that I get to be the guy who gives Bill a "healing" by letting him get away with me what he wanted to do to another guy?

PsychDoctorate said...

Although you might not have much information on Michael Tamura, I actually do. I am a former graduate of the Berkeley Psychic Institute. Michael was not the most profound teacher you would think of him as.

He had and was well known for "digging" into people through his readings and often brining a person to tears. He enjoyed brining people down despite the image of being such a nice person.

He expelled many people from the Church often for no reason other than "their energy was bad."

On the business side of things, he had no qualms about spending church money for almost anything. I worked for the church and they paid for almost all of his expenses, including housing while paying him a rather larger salary. This is substantiated fact.

The amount of money he used to eat out and claimed as "business expense" was astronomical. His credit card bills for the church (which I saw and wrote checks for) showed that he had at least one meal per day which was "church expense" since there was another church "minister" present.

Oh and not many people know this, but he was having an affair with his now current wife Rapahelle, while he was still married to his current wife Kay. Raphaelle was a meditation teacher at the Palo Alto Psychic Institute, before it closed.

The whole scandal was covered up and no one talked much about it. Shortly thereafter, Michael started working on the Anaheim Psychic Institute.

Coincidence? We really do not know. Michael was Lewis Bostwicks protege. I would call him more of a project than Protoge.

He is now fully indoctrinated into the psychic cultic mindset which besets those who begin doing this work. One must always remember, Lewis Bostwick was a former Scientologist and all of his teachings are based on Scientology.

People who teach these tools, like Michael are completely unaware that they are using mind control techniques to slowly alter a persons consciousness and program them with a delusional belief system.

November 12, 2008 2:44 AM

Put another foot in...

Here's a quickie: two more have left the Spiritual Rights Foundation citing the July 2008 church service as the last straw.

The bishop of SRF has a mouth bigger than her brain, looks like.

Quite possibly in response to the defections caused by this infamous sermon in July, the recording of the church service has been removed from the SRF website.

Other defections may happen as well. I have no idea who they may be, when they may leave or for what reason. But an ever-increasing number of departures tends to keep going and going.

All of this can't be ignored by the leadership. After all, fewer people dropping 80% of their paychecks every month means less money in the Swiss bank and personal investment accounts.

I'm not saying that I have any special insider information, as I am an outsider (I guess that qualifies me as the Republican Party's next VP candidate) but I do have a theory on what will happen to SRF in the next two years.

I believe that the leadership of SRF will begin to convert as many SRF assets to cash as possible. Either through sales or (what I believe more likely) through leveraging the properties with as many mortgages, HELOC's and other credit lines as possible in the name of SRF, Inc. As soon as it's all tapped out, the leaders will abscond with the cash, handing the reins (and the debts) to the membership. The membership will immediately find their situation untenable.

The now-retired leadership will then blame the membership for being unskilled and clumsy in handling the SRF piggy bank and will sit back on their pile of cash while SRF is forced to liquidate.

Apparently, the SRF properties are currently being perused by appraisers.

The remaining members aren't sophisticated enough or sufficiently knowledgeable to see trouble on the horizon. So, they would not be willing to take action.

However, I'd wonder what would happen when the attorneys start looking into the subsequent bankruptcy? Generally, it's not worth an attorney's time to get too involved in challenging a bankruptcy as there usually little left to recover. But what if an organization officer sucks money out of a corporation's assets for personal gain?

Remember Dennis Kozlowski? The former CEO of Tyco in New York City used the company as his personal piggy bank.

Now he's playing human piggy bank with his new friends in Mid-State Federal Correction Facility in Upstate New York. They deposit and he oinks. And they're not dropping nickels from the tooth fairy.

Why would robbing a church be different from robbing a publicly-held company?

Honestly, I'd rather not see SRF go down because of the greed of a few dysfunctional leaders as several otherwise good people will go down with it. But I would not bet against that happening.

Bet you dollars to donuts that the leadership at SRF are doing some oinking of their own.

My favorites are old-fashioned, with a couple of french crullers thrown in.

From the land of ABBA, IKEA and Volvo

Here's an interesting tidbit I found while surfing. The writer is a Swedish woman who spent time at SRF. The original text was in Swedish and the below is a machine translation.

---------------------------------------------------------------

During my time in the United States, I was a part-time member of a new age sekt. Most sects have quite a good message, but they are destructive to be in. Famlijen I worked for were some of the leaders there. They spoke in broad terms about how they prepared and their bodies before the big switch makers who waited on the planet. Have not had to do with the sect for many years, but for a few days ago I went in to the internet to check. I was told that the main leader of the sect died a few years ago, he who was doing super-secret stuff, deep mystery and would survive armageddon. He was not even top 60. On the spiritual rights foundation I learned psykic healing and meditation, thought I would become healthier, but oh no. Pay for my work, I had barely either.

Written by Jane Hellen January 4 08:5

Developing your Web presence: The Spiritual Rights Foundation

Just a random link:

Developing your Web presence: The Spiritual Rights Foundation

Take a look at your leisure...

How not to be a cult.

I ran across the following in the forums of a counselor who specializes in cult recovery.

(content edited)

-----------------------------------------------------------

Memo to Cult Leaders: How NOT to Be a Cult

by John on Thu Jun 19, 2008 1:53 pm

Give me a moment. I mean to give this article a positive agenda. But it may take a second to get there.

I could complain about my group, Transcendental Meditation. But I'd like to give the new leaders a few tips on how not to be a cult.

Perhaps other cults and leaders could incorporate a few of them.

This is what I observe. When critics label a group cultic, there's a knee-jerk reaction. The group enters an escalating spiral of defensiveness.

First, they claim they are not a cult. They give dozens of reasons why they're just like other religions or groups. They attempt to destroy their critics. They claim critics are "disgruntled," criminal, bankrupt, unbalanced -- downright crazy.

When these tactics don't work, cults ratchet up repressive isolation of their members and forbid them to read critics.

Critics rightly point out these defensive maneuvers make the groups even more cultic than before. Which sets off another round of defensiveness.

Not every organization that critics label a cult started out to abuse its members. But without forethought, any organization can become cultic. Look at the problems the Catholic Church faces.

So here are a few tips for cult leaders. Maybe, just maybe, they can dodge the cult label.

Be Transparent

* discuss policies, procedures & scandals openly
* publicize open complaint procedures
* report public scandals promptly to members, law officials & public media
* allow free information flow & fully disclose "secrets," especially those that might affect potential members' choice to join
* fully disclose the group's political & legislative involvement
* fully disclose finances, particularly international finances, with third-party audits
* create a member-driven task force to set reasonable fees for retreats & "courses"
* dialogue openly with laity, the press & the public

Be Accountable

* publish -- and adhere to -- a set of ethics
* publish -- and adhere to -- all fees & donation policies
* oversee clergy & other agents with governing boards
* if any group agent acts unethically or illegally, take full responsibility

Advocate Freedom

* allow open questioning of the leader's beliefs & practices
* Create a mechanism for modifying beliefs & practices
* create an elective or accountable structure of representation (as in most churches)
* promote freedom of speech within the group, without reprisals for contrary opinions
* promote academic freedom for clergy & scholars
* allow access to files/records held on members & public individuals
* advocate freedom to explore our spirituality without shunning or other repercussions
* avoid use of shame or guilt to control members

Provide Member Protections

* institute safeguards against members devoting damaging amounts of time, money & emotional resources to the group

Value Respect for Non-Members

* foster a systemic respect for other spiritual traditions & non-members
* foster a systemic respect for the rule of law, rather than the belief the ends justify the means
* foster a systemic respect for members' families, whether they are members or not
* foster a systemic practice of charity & support to the less fortunate
* encourage members to live or socialize with non-group members

Provide Informed Consent

* fully disclose negative side-effects of group's mind-altering or medical techniques
* undertake real efforts to address & heal side-effects
* accept financial responsibility for members suffering side-effects

Imagine a cult that acted with this kind of integrity.

That's a spiritual organization I could be proud of.

------------------------------------------------------------

How about it?

SRF received a good deal of negative publicity thanks to a group of ex-members who had children in the cult and an ex-spouse still active in the cult. The leadership of SRF actively resisted the rights of the ex-members to visit or have partial custody of their children. The affected ex-members fought, through the legal system, to restore their rights.

Several news articles were published, claiming that SRF was behaving in a cult-like manner and that thought control, financial abuse, psychological abuse and even child abuse were conducted. Many ex-members helped blow the whistle on this dysfunctional organization.

Later, Steve Sanchez published a bombshell, tell-all book about his abuse at the hands of SRF. SRF later printed a tome on their website calling Steve mentally ill and used their radio show and newspaper to discredit the whistle blowers.

Instead of complaining about the negative publicity, couldn't SRF have started a positive P.R. campaign? To be fair, they tried. But being too cheap and insular to hire a professional to help, they tried to do it on their own.

Because of their history of causing tension among the membership, the leadership could not get people to cooperate with each other to build a positive campaign. Instead, everyone fought.

If you've lost your moral compass and are operating only in your own self-interest, why be transparent? Why be accountable? Why practice respect for current and former members?

If you have lost your humanity, why advocate freedom, protect members and provide informed consent?

A cult belongs to the people who run it. Not the people who attend it. Many legitimate churches are managed and guided by board of directors constituted by members of the congregation. The spiritual education will be directed by a council of ministers, a national church association or another organization that is external to the church.

Churches are created for the spiritual well-being of the congregation and properties and assets are held in the name of the church for the benefit of the congregation. Cults are not.

The congregation is not represented in the SRF board of directors as thye would be in many churches.

The congregation should have a rotating seat where one person will take a turn attending board meetings and participating in the direction of the church. Many churches do that. Someone from the congregation at SRF should have that opportunity.

But, what's the point? If you are so beaten that you accept humiliating treatment and if you are so enamored with status, power and greed that you have lost your ability to work and cooperate with your fellow church members, you won't be interested in working for the benefit of the group.

A pledge

You all now know that my wife and I met at the Spiritual Rights Foundation. We both escaped. We also host socials at our home with our friends, some of whom are ex-SRF members.

Some of the former members of SRF have made a pledge to each other that I'd like to share with you: "For all the things I may have done to you, I ask your forgiveness. For all the things you may have done to me, you have my forgiveness."

It's a simple pledge but incredibly meaningful and heartfelt.

The leadership and staff of the Spiritual Rights Foundation were constantly spreading distortions and gossip throughout the membership to create tension among the people and to give them the "demon of the week" to shun and humiliate.

This practice continues. My wife went to a supposedly private "spiritual counseling" session with the president. To our horror, the details of that session was revealed to the entire congregation. That behavior is not only a severe ethical violation by a member of clergy, in the State of California, it is absolutely illegal.

We were treated like lepers after that, as many intimate details of our relationship were revealed.

We were not the only ones. The personal details of all relationships were immediately revealed to the congregation after private counseling sessions. They said it was for "a healing". In actuality, these disclosures caused even more tension in relationships and caused people to bite at each other, interfere with people working together on church projects and locked people down in gossip and rumor instead of maintaining focus on their spiritual growth.

What kind of "church" actively creates tension and strife among its congregation?

We were all caught up in this behavior. I am guilty of participating in the strife just as much as everyone else. It was expected behavior.

So, I say to all ex-members: For all the things I may have done to you , I ask your forgiveness. For all the things you may have done to me, you have my forgiveness.

If you are reading this and are still at SRF my hand is open to you as well.

And I also pledge that for all the things I may have done to you , I ask your forgiveness. For all the things you may have done to me, you have my forgiveness.

So, when did I start thinking about leaving?

Like many cults, the Spiritual Rights Foundation depends on new members to rape, pillage and loot. Well, maybe not rape. And pillaging would mean there would be nothing left to loot. So, I guess they need more people to loot.

The cult has been experiencing a slow and steady decline in membership the last few years. From its heyday of 30 active ministers and as many ministers-in-training, the numbers appeared to have dropped to about 16 ministers and maybe 4 ministers-in-training.

My moment of clarity was different but just as enlightening. I was summoned to a meeting with the cult directors. In it, they were testing my faith or something like that. In the conversation, the president said that the founder wanted me to "teach the year class and join the board of directors". Those are both highly esteemed positions in the cult and are endowed with a certain amount of power, privilege and influence.

Well, after politely accepting this information I ran like hell back to my little church-owned hovel and started using the meditation and reflection techniques taught by the cult. Keep in mind that at that point I was opening my eyes to the cult. I was recalling the lies, the deliberate way they kept people confused, and the way they would appeal to a person's ego just enough to get what they wanted from them.

While in reflection, a few words came up. Greed. Pride. Gluttony. Was that me? What was that? Where did that come from? After a moment, the answer came up. That statement was there to appeal to my baser self. They always said that I had an "ambitious nature" and that they were charged to control it and use it.

There it is again. The appeal to ego. Knowing that the cult rarely keeps a promise and always pulls some kind of stunt to keep people off-balance, not knowing what to expect I knew right then that the statement that I would be given a influential position was nothing more than some kind of appeal to my "ambitious nature".

It was no coincidence that at that time, I was about to receive a sizable amount of property through an inheritance. And they knew it. Giving me a stroke to my ego would keep me in line and would keep me in control. It would also lead me to get rid of my only blessing at that time - the inheritance. That inheritance was the only thing that would allow me an independent life away from the clutches of the Spiritual Rights Foundation.

So, being no idiot (but perhaps not far from it) I put two and two together and decided my long-term spiritual growth and unfoldment lay elsewhere.

It took a while to get myself actually pulled away from the mess called the Spiritual Rights Foundation. It was a little longer for my wife to pull herself away. No, I did not do anything or say anything to force, coerce or otherwise influence her to leave. She left on her own. But leave we did. She turned her back and walked away while I kept turning back to spit at them.

I would imagine that SRF is none too pleased with this blog. In their view, the "negative energy" of this blog apparently permeates the organization and is infecting the cult with defections.

How that happens, beats me. I don't send this blog to anyone. In fact, I don't publicize it at all as of this writing. If anyone reads this blog, it's because they searched for the topic or stumbled upon it. I never initiate contact with any of the SRF members out of respect for their way of life, where there is little or no contact with outsiders.

Should a current member of SRF reads this, I'm not advocating or encouraging your departure. That is your choice. However, I will support your decision if you leave and would be willing to help any way I can.

I don't think I'll get any takers. Honestly, many of the people left there have nothing significant in their lives but the cult. Many have lost marriages, family, property and money or have no hope of the health, wealth or inner peace the cult claims to inspire them to attain. But despite that, they might as well stay since SRF gives them a chance to wallow together.

Best of luck to them. I hope their moment of clarity happens sometime. If they do have that moment, we will be glad to invite them to our next event. And unlike SRF events (where you cough up an entry fee, are told it's a pot luck or both), we will pay for the entrees.

But you can bring some cookies. We also like good wine.

Wise Guys always get paid

I was watching one of the greatest gangster movies of all time: "Goodfellas". There was one segment that I found interesting. A guy who owned a restaurant needed a partner to operate the business and wound up with a wise guy (a mafioso).

After the partnership was made, the wise guy got wise and started to suck money out of the business. The main character describes the relationship like this:
That's the way it is with a wiseguy partner. He gets his money no matter what. You got no business? Fuck you, pay me. You had a fire? Fuck you, pay me. The place got hit by lightning and World War Three started in the lounge? Fuck you, pay me.

So is the relationship between the SRF directors and their businesses. To my knowledge, none of the businesses ever made a "profit". I remember the founder telling me that his cohorts were worried about having to pay taxes on profits the companies made. Since the Spiritual Rights Foundation abhors the payment of taxes (for things like, you know, schools, hospitals, roads and clean water) his advice was to have the companies donate more money to SRF. That donation reduced the total profit to the company and kept money at SRF.

So, those companies were not making a profit due to poor practices. They were not making profits due to sharp practices. No profit means no taxes.

But the directors were making money. Lots of it. Money from renting out slum apartments, selling self-help materials, construction and other pseudo-businesses. The money the businesses made was used to pay the SRF directors salaries. Employees got small salaries and there was never any program to re-invest money in the companies. I've had people who were involved in those business say that the directors did little or no actual work for the company. No matter how poorly the company was doing, the wise guys always got their money.

So, buying anything from an SRF-related company like "Health and Wealth" might get you something more than you bargained for.

What did You get out of the Spiritual Rights Foundation

Since I have no intention to humiliate and this blog is an open forum for all opinions, I would like to hear from anyone who has had any experience with SRF, good, bad or otherwise. Just leave a comment - they are not moderated.

I promise you I will not humiliate, berated or discourage you from any of your opinions. You may remain anonymous if you like and if you do provide your email or other information, I promise that I will contact you only at your request. Please be as descriptive as possible, show courtesy and good manners to others and be respectful of the topic of this blog.

If you had a great experience with SRF, let me know. I will not try to convince you to leave the Spiritual Rights Foundation nor will I allow anyone to do so in this blog. I believe that when done appropriately and in a supportive environment, the techniques taught at the Spiritual Rights Foundation are valid. If you had an experience with those techniques that you enjoyed or found helpful, please send a comment.

I won't argue with anyone. Flames on any comments are strictly forbidden and will be deleted or edited. You may, however, flame me or my writings as much as you like or say whatever comes to mind even if you are getting personal. Say to me whatever you want, just do not abuse any other posters.

I'll be sure your comments are posted verbatim - even if you want to tell me I am completely wrong or are in vehement disagreement with me.

I've also got to say that any current staff member of SRF or their agent who post a comment should clearly identify himself as such, in the interest of honestly and fairness.

I'll set up a forum if there is interest and will post the URL.

Getting to you through another

One of the major issues members and ex-members of SRF was the insertion of the church leadership into their lives and relationships.

SRF considers men to be at the bottom of the food chain. At SRF, children come first. Then women, then dogs, then men. To keep the men in line, they would stoop to the lowest kinds of behavior.

Bill and his partners took more than the usual amount of interest in people's lives. They became counsels to the point where you were compelled to do exactly what they say. And if you disagreed, then the people closest to you will be pursued, confronted and used to help them drive home the will of the church leadership to you.

Bill Duby actively took the role of spouse and father in all the relationships at SRF. His reasoning was that his role was to "father you from above", citing some kind of obscure and odd biblical or "spiritual" references. I never really saw any reference to someone replacing a husband or father, mother or wife anywhere. If someone can, please post it here so we can start a discussion on it.

Several times, my spouse was told several lies, distortions and inflammatory statements to anger her and compel her to lash out against me. Then, the "healing" would consist of us attending a "couples counseling" session costing hundreds of dollars.

Men were beasts, in their view. And nothing could redeem them.

In Steve Sanchez's book, "Spiritual Perversion" the things that were said to spouses, the intimidation, the way that the leadership of SRF deliberately pitted spouse against spouse and child against parent is clearly described. I can tell you that I witnessed much of what was described in Steve's book. I never thought that such horribly demeaning and terrible techniques would be done by ministers of God.

Steve wrote mostly about his own abuse at the hands of the Spiritual Rights Foundation. I have seen the same technique of pitting spouses against each other and using lies, intimidation, and deliberate attempts to discredit husbands in front of their wives, deliberate attempts to demonize fathers in front of their children for reasons as minor as an inconsequential disagreement such as the way a wall was painted.

While Steve Sanchez describes in his book presents the disruption of established relationships through the unrestrained anger of William Duby, the basic attempts of the SRF leaders into the relationship of spouses and children remain. To survive, men must take a subservient role - not a equal one.

I'm a disease spreader

Since my last post, more people have left the Spiritual Rights Foundation cult. After my departure two years ago, a rather significant number of formally hard-core members departed for various reasons. The leaders of the Spiritual Rights Foundation have always believed that when members depart, the urge to leave would be contagious. Well, if I had spread that disease, I guess I'll be happy to be called Typhoid Mary.

Always, immediately after a person left the cult, the remaining members were summoned for healing sessions and psychic readings intended to remove any "energy" that would cause the member to leave the cult. These sessions would last sometimes for hours. I have personally been summoned to the heads of the cult for personal healing sessions designed to maintain control over my membership with them.

A married couple left, citing the cult's control over their lives as a reason. This couple have three children and are stuck living in a Spiritual Rights Foundation-owned one bedroom apartment. ONE BEDROOM!

Despite their good income, the costs of membership, the long hours of "volunteer" labor they were required to commit to the Spiritual Rights Foundation enterprises, they were unable to afford anything better.

Worse, the cult has lied to them both about several things. The leadership of the cult made several disparaging statements about them in their presence and when asked about it directly, denied having said them. No wonder this couple was fed up with it.

Thankfully, they have pulled themselves out of that situation have moved into a nicer situation with more room. It didn't take long after they quit paying the outlandish and never-ending fees to have enough funds to escape. Woohoo!

One other person left as well. In his situation, he has a small business that makes good income and provides a good living for him and his employees. However, as his costs increase, he's got some serious pressure on that end of the business.

This comes in addition to his tithe and other fees for classes and any other levies SRF asks for.

Of course, that situation became untenable. I do not know what specifically led to his departure but I understand that it was full of rancor. He is still pretty mad, I hear.

Spiritual Perversion - The Steve Sanchez Story

Steve Sanchez is a former minister at The Spiritual Rights Foundation who left after 15 years of affiliation with the church. His relationship with The Spiritual Rights Foundation became strained over the years due to several reasons. The whole sordid affair is well described in his book "Spiritual Perversion"

Steve's no saint and he admits it - that is also well described in his book. But behind he un-saintly behavior is a graphic description of daily life at The Spiritual Rights Foundation. Steve's frustration with SRF is directed at the founder, Bill Duby and much of the megalomania, foul behavior and unrelenting verbal abuse did indeed come from Bill. Some amount of that behavior ended with Bill's death in 2001. However, his legacy of control, greed and incomprehensibly irrational and impulsive behavior continued.

Steve Sanchez describes several events in his book. Many were stories of how Bill Duby (Rev. Bill to his followers) influenced his followers to work for the church for free, actively and deliberately pitted spouses against each other, turned children against their parents and started for-profit companies (owned by himself, his partner or his wife) using the money donated to the non-profit church as start-up capital. Monies earned from these for-profit companies were then skimmed off to pay the church's board or directors - who would serve as the for-profit company "managers". People like Steve, who were the for-profit company's employees were paid less than market rate wages and frequently, paid nothing at all.

I won't go into the details here as Spiritual Perversion can be previewed on Google Books and purchased at Amazon. I will say that I had either witnessed or was told of several of the events he writes about. While some of those events have some artistic license applied to them, in general they are accurate. Spiritual Perversion is not a well-written book by any stretch of the imagination. It is one of the few first-hand accounts of life in a cult of mind control and it will put a chill down your spine.

Steve describes many events where he was fiercely berated, shunned and humiliated in front of his SRF peers, students - even his wife and child. He also describes having to work for SRF for free. In one utterly amazing event, The Spiritual Rights Foundation stooped so low as to force him to turn over every penny he had (even the small amount in his pants pocket) and work a full work week in an SRF-owned construction company for absolutely no pay.

That event was prompted by a supposedly illegal act Steve committed while employed by an SRF-owned construction business. From what I was told about the acts, Steve's actions were maybe a bit shady but less than illegal. Besides, he was paid very little - about half of market rate, and was forced to support his then-current wife (who did not work outside the home), support his two daughters and find room to pay the fees demanded by The Spiritual Rights Foundation. Did I mention he had to tithe also? Who wouldn't resort to some shady dealings if he was desperate to feed his family? Why not deal a bit for yourself, if the church was paying you with the left hand and taking away with the right, especially if you have a family?

However, The Spiritual Rights Foundation called it embezzlement. According to Steve and others, the President of SRF conjured up evidence against Steve while in a self-induced trance state. Using the visions experienced in this trance state, the President of The Spiritual Rights Foundation concluded that a criminal act was committed and set a dollar value on the amount supposedly "stolen". According to Steve's writings, he was not presented with actual concrete evidence of theft.

Steve was led to believe that felony charges would be filed unless he submitted himself to humiliating, degrading, and very likely illegal "retribution".

I would have loved to see that case presented to the district attorney. What reaction would you expect from an officer of the court when you ask him to prosecute a guy, claiming a psychic vision as evidence? Maybe the D.A.'s office would have picked up the hot line to the nearest psych ward. Come to think of it, that's probably why no one went to the D.A.'s office. Why risk having the D.A. throw you in the nut house, when you can just bully, intimidate and degrade someone you hate?

Even if there was an illegal act and even if Steve could have been convicted, no one has the right to confiscate a man's entire paycheck in order to make restitution. The courts and common sense insist that a person making restitution deserves to keep at least enough to feed, clothe and otherwise care for himself. But if you are The Spiritual Rights Foundation, you believe you have the right to take everything that anyone owns or earns and leave that person's living to his own devices.

The Spiritual Rights Foundation exerted such control over Steve, he believed they would ruin his life. In fact, his life was ruined much earlier as his wife (who was a devoted SRF member) and child (who was intentionally kept away from him and raised within SRF) were told to shun him as he was at a "lower vibration" and could contaminate their spiritual growth. Steve could not live with his family for a long time.

After the alleged theft incident, he soon hit bottom with The Spiritual Rights Foundation and made the decision to get out and get away to save his life. Steve's book is his way to heal the trauma and inform the public of the inner workings of dangerous cults. He is now re-married and is living a very comfortable and happy life.

If you do have an interest in mind control cults, Spiritual Perversion is a fair account of the kind of behavior the current and former members faced in The Spiritual Rights Foundation. He makes no conclusions nor does he direct the reader to any opinions. It reads like his journal, rather than a textbook. But, reading Spiritual Perversion can help make sense of situations such as the FLDS polygamist cult and others.

Of course, The Spiritual Rights Foundation hates this book. Shortly after it's publication, the President of SRF related to me that she was seeking a legal action against Amazon.com because one of the book's reviewers used the phrase "Spiritual Rights Foundation" on the book's web page without saying that the term was owned by the "Spiritual Rights Foundation". She went on to say she instructed her attorney to begin a lawsuit.

The only problem with that is, a search on the U.S. Copyright Office and the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office could find no registration for the term "Spiritual Rights Foundation". Besides, that term was not use in a manner that usurped their name for commercial purposes or confused it with something else. It was used in a commentary, which constitutes fair use. Even better, she was not smart enough to look at the Amazon legal page stating that all copyrighted terms belong to their owner - a perfectly legal way to give attribution to copyright holders.

The offending statement "The Spiritual Rights Foundation" is still there on Amazon. I wonder how hard the Amazon legal team laughed?

Well if you can't beat them in the courts, try to make the guy look bad. The president, rebuffed by the legal system, decided to read some passages of Steve's book where he described how the isolation, abuse and humiliation drove him to seek a sexual outlet with prostitutes and other men aloud to the assembled SRF congregation. No other passages were read aloud.

All of the current members of SRF have sworn to not read Steve's book. It's no wonder why.


If you are interested in Spiritual Perversion, here are some links to get you started:
Spiritual Redemption Blog
A Review of "Spiritual Perversion"
Another Review of "Spiritual Perversion"
Yet Another Review of "Spiritual Perversion"
Buy "Spiritual Perversion"

How did I get wrapped up in this anyway?

OK, so I am a reasonably intelligent guy. I'm no Einstein but I do have more common sense than a stapler. What gets a perfectly average Joe like me to wind up getting wrapped up in the really awful situation of having joined a notorious cult?




It's a simple answer and a really complex explanation: everyone need to feel like they have something to hold on to and everyone needs to feel like they belong to someone or something. Despite all the great things we all have in life, there's always something deep inside that haves you looking for more. That's what groups like the Spiritual Rights Foundation (SRF) looks for.



With crushing job stress and my fair share of failed relationships under my belt I was looking to fill a huge hole in my life. SRF, as it turned out, was on the hunt for a person with an ample bank account and knowledge of PC's. They got me the first time I walked in. How they figured I would fit the bill for them is beyond me. But they were friendly, in their own way. Guess that is how I got sucked in.



I will detail more about the cult as well as my experiences with it in later posts. This time, I'll just lay out some foundation (no pun intended). I will also say that events related here, while correct to my recollection and understanding, may have minor differences to actual events. Still, I would hope that what I describe here will convey the spirit of actual events.



The Spiritual Rights Foundation (SRF) is a non-profit religious organization formed some 25 years ago by former students of the Berkeley Psychic Institute. Two of those founders have been treated for severe mental illness prior to founding SRF. One of those founders, Pastor Willam Duby (known as Reverend Bill), often raved that he received government disability benefits for being "legally insane" and that he "rescued" a fellow founder from "the crazy house" - which is believed to be a psychiatric hospital. The exact nature of his and the other founding member's illness have not been disclosed, but speculation is that schizophrenia, with paranoia or acute psychosis were likely diagnoses.



SRF has been strongly against the practice of Psychology and especially Psychiatry. With the knowledge of the founder's experiences with Psychiatry, there should be no wonder why. This mistrust of the behavioral sciences is so strong, that students and staff of SRF are required to sign a contract that prohibits the use of counseling or psychiatric treatment.

It's no secret that many schizophrenics and psychotics have religious delusions. It's also no secret that paranoids mistrust the behavioral sciences more than any other element in their lives. The teaching at SRF instilled fear and distrust of psychology, saying that psychologists just "get into your head" and provide no worthwhile treatment.

Psychiatrists fare even worse in the eyes of SRF: psychiatric medicines were said to "freeze" those who are so un-enlightened to use them at the state of mind that exists when treatment begins. So in SRF dogma, anyone swallowing a Prozac will be depressive forever. Even in the afterlife.

Now considering that two founders of SRF had some amount of time in the psych ward, did their experience with psychiatric medicines "freeze" them at their state of insanity? If they were, then how did they "un-freeze" to arise in enlightenment to found a spiritual foundation? And how come no one gets to learn about that?

I never asked. It just never occurred to me. I suppose that is what organizations like SRF bank on - that the members will be so caught up in the organization's propaganda that no one could question the people dealing it.

I drank the Kool-Aid.

Bill was an incredibly charismatic and interesting guy. Loquacious when he wanted to be, quiet when it suited him. Full of laughter and merriment on moment and consumed with rage the next. His talks and writings were engaging. Some of his teaching sessions ran all night, keeping us all rapt in attention. Several times I found myself spending whole weekends there with little sleep just to be around the "energy". He was amazing to watch. I'd never seen anyone like him before.

He positioned himself as your friend, father, brother, counseler. That's what hooked me in. There was an amzaing amount of commitment and deep, hearfelt effort put into promoting the good news that we had to deliver to the world. We would stay up all night sometimes helping out building web sites, doing construction labor, writing articles for the newspaper, speaking on the podcast, or just being there.

They tell you that one hour of trancing their way equals eight hours of sleep. So, you really don't need to sleep much. And the best psychic work is done after midnight. Every night, there is a "spirit patrol" where a group of people "clean" the energy at SRF and work on various projects such as cleaning the facilities, writing, recording hypnosis or trance materials and getting rid of bad energy from people like me. This spirit patrol begins at about 11:00 at night and carries on until 3AM.

I've met several good people during my time there and keep in touch with as many as I can. Those people are the ones who are out of the "energy" - they have all left the clutches of SRF. The ones I know who stayed aren't interested in staying in touch. Besides, they have to stay up all night cleaning up the psychic mess I am leaving behind through this blog.

Thanks to a bit of awakening and some good fortune, I was able to see the place for what it really is: a psychic pyramid scheme. In order to get more money, they needed more people to give them free labor and a regular income. Now that Bill is dead (he passed in 2001), that charismatic figure is gone and the same old motley crew is living out the same old scripts that keep them on a treadmill to nowhere.

There is more. I'll post as often as I can.

Silence = Death

This post (and many of the comments) has been moved to:

http://leavingsrf.blogspot.com/2010/01/stop-silence.html

Try the home page for the latest and greatest:

http://leavingsrf.blogspot.com

 
But the original Spiritual Rights Foundation response to this blog is below as a comment.

I offered them a link on every damn page of this blog but they turned it down.

They also insisted the response be displayed for two years.  That means they guaranteed this blog will continue for at least two years.  Why would I turn THAT down?

Do take a look at that "response".  It's a laugher.